Hidden divergence - page 25
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I am trying to formalise the signal for the whole class of inertia indicators (in the understanding that they compare current and past values) and I consider the Hidden D-K to be an excellent indicator of the end of a trend correction.
Yes, a divert is a good indicator, but within a prolonged correction there may be as many as two or three in one direction. In my humble opinion, for an EA the scales should be adjusted (i.e. elements of MM) at the next signal and at confirmation of a real, and not false, divergence, because it is impossible to distinguish a real divergence from a false one in on-line trading. Any seemingly "iron" divergences in today's market break elementary. I forgot to mention that I always use Fibs - in most cases I just ignore false signals or use them to prepare for market entry. What is interesting, I still do not have a good divergence indicator, is it technically difficult to create a good divergence indicator? Not an expert, alas.
Yes, a divergence is a good indicator, but within the limits of a prolonged correction there may be two or three of them in one direction.
the wording of the title term of the topic:
- "Hidden" Div-Con in a bullish trend is when the troughs in the indicator are deeper than the troughs in the price chart.
- "Hidden" Div-Con on a bearish trend is when the tops on the indicator are higher than the tops on the price chart.
This formulation is the reverse of the Direct Divergence-Convergence formulation.
So far, I see one but important achievement of this topic - the use of terms. I.e.,as if by tacit agreement, in order to avoid confusion (due to the indicator location - above or below the price chart) we speak about Divergence as D\K.
Straight D-Q is very common, Hidden D-Q is much rarer.
the wording of the title term of the topic:
- "Hidden" Div-Con in a bullish trend is when the troughs in the indicator are deeper than the troughs in the price chart.
- "Hidden" Div-Con on a bearish trend is when the tops on the indicator are higher than the tops on the price chart.
This formulation is the opposite of the Direct Divergence-Convergence formulation.
One thing I see so far, but an important achievement of this topic is the use of terms. This is important for you as a lecturer...
You are confusing me with someone else after all. We have not corresponded. I am not a lecturer.
You have me confused with someone else after all. We have not corresponded. I'm not a lecturer.
You wrote... "Even my students are a little... how shall I put it... "chuckle."
That's from your post, that's why I decided. Sorry, removed. You can remove it too.
Time for a midterm though maybe on another thread or maybe on another site - already got suggestions.
We have a leading indicator - the one that determines the end of trend correction, i.e. Hidden D-K (we have a GRAAL in its pure form).
Actually, the Hidden D-C catches the 3rd wave, as it often defines the end of the 2nd wave.
It is important not to make a mistake as it defines the termination of the 4th wave. Here the MACD as a "4th wave catcher" will help.
It also catches two corrections in the 3rd wave, but it is not so dramatic for the deposit.
2.It took me a long time to choose indicators for fixing this signal and settled on the upgraded classic ones that display Hidden D-K well
MACD, ADX, BollingerBands,
ROC, Priliv_s, Acceleration&Speed, Integer series on the same theme ...
I will continue later
We can discuss the leading indicator MA6Open and MA8Close (crossover).
And a small plan for the future (new themes):
Forum topic plan
The tool of the professional trader
Women's Investment Club
So, GRAAL ...
Tender and Auction.
Strategies Club (there the Hidden D-C strategy will compete with all the others)
Second Breath (Hidden D-C Expert Advisor Championship).
Collective Expert Advisor - future winner of the Championship
Decided to show the channel as well. Also 'fitted' it. Not the worst of the channels - it works equally on all frames. Today's picture, at the current price.
The channel is good, but it is overdrawn.
Although it may not matter for your purposes.
Chalk it up to not being noticed by D/C. I will now zoom in and check it out. Maybe with some general help we can polish the definitions. Or would you like to hear the voice of the Oracle?
NOT SEE. Guide. The leading chart is on the top. Let's count the fractals to the left of the start of the white line. Reminder, we are only talking about the Hidden D-K.
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Let's try it again.
First, some clarifications. I use definitions of D/K, but only divide them into general and local, no further distinction. However, let's clarify your definition - hidden D/K.
The price and the indicator create extrema (highs and lows). A hidden D/C is the lower extremum of the indicator lower than the previous (lower) extremum, while the corresponding lower extremum of the price is higher than the previous (lower) extremum. That is what is shown in your picture. Right?
Then, in the first section you have specified, there are four distinct lower extremums of the indicator (from the beginning to the end of the white line in the order from the left one - beginning, the fourth one - end) and three upper extremums. They correspond to the price extremums.
Then the second lower extremum of the indicator is lower than the first lower extremum of the indicator and the corresponding lower extremum of the price is higher.
The same applies to the third lower extremum of the indicator towards the first extremum.
If in the first variant one can more or less say that there was an up movement (fulfillment of the condition of the hidden D/A), in the second variant after a very short correction, the price moved strongly downwards instead of moving up (condition of the hidden D/A). And only at the third latent A/C the condition was fulfilled.
Therefore, the D/A signals themselves (no matter whether they are latent or not latent local or not) are just signals and that is not enough to build a trading system.
On this I am in solidarity with s2101.
The channel is good, but it is overdrawn.
However, it may not be crucial for your purposes.
I have to say that you are absolutely correct in your observation. Let's analyze what you do when building, for example, so-called moving channels (or any other channels). You are building a new channel with every new extremum, and after the price has already changed and formed this new extremum. That is you TRANSFER, but with a great delay. Moreover, when guiding by the former channel, you cannot say in advance whether the price will break through it, reflect from it or not reach it at all (i.e. the reference points are undefined).
In other words, I want to note (irrelevant to your comment) that people are so accustomed to the fact that any indicator re-drawing is bad that they call it bad where it is an advantage.
For a channel, redrawing is an advantage, not a disadvantage. And the redrawing of this channel is not very significant.
The lines of this indicator always exist at any moment of the current price and, using wave and trend analysis, you can determine in advance exactly whether the existing channel will be temporarily broken or the price will bounce from it.
We can talk a lot about channels and their properties in an interesting way, but we all have limited time resources for posts.
About Geronimo. I've told him ten times that he is very much mistaken with his own interpretations. I have the impression that he has read a lot of material (i.e. he is not lazy), but his efforts have been aimed at memorizing rather than understanding, which has led to mixing up sometimes unrelated notions.
.
About the signals. The latent divergence signals (correct or not - let us not focus on this) were called trend signals. In one of my posts (here or in "Hateful Pipsing") I showed on some specific charts that divergence can be both a counter-trend signal and a trend signal in the same trend. The same applies to convergence. That is, we cannot say that divergence is a signal against a trend while convergence is a signal with the trend, or vice versa. One should look at a certain situation.
And your observation = "Thus, D/K signals themselves (no matter how implicit or implicit, local or non-local they are) are simply signals, and they are not sufficient for creating a trading system" = absolutely fair.
.
I'm glad to meet you in absentia.
Good luck.
Let's try again.
First, some clarifications. I use definitions of D/C, but I only divide them into general and local, no other distinction. However, let's clarify your definition - hidden D/K.
The price and the indicator create extrema (highs and lows). A hidden D/C is the lower extremum of the indicator lower than the previous (lower) extremum, while the corresponding lower extremum of the price is higher than the previous (lower) extremum. That is what is shown in your picture. Right?
Then, in the first section you have specified, there are four distinct lower extremums of the indicator (from the beginning to the end of the white line in the order from the left one - beginning, the fourth one - end) and three upper extremums. They correspond to the price extremums.
Then the second lower extremum of the indicator is lower than the first lower extremum of the indicator and the corresponding lower extremum of the price is higher.
The same applies to the third lower extremum of the indicator towards the first extremum.
If in the first variant one can more or less say that there was an up movement (fulfillment of the condition of the hidden D/A), in the second variant, after a very short correction, the price moved strongly downwards instead of moving up (condition of the hidden D/A). And only at the third latent A/C the condition was fulfilled.
So by themselves, the D/C signals (whether they are latent or not latent local or not) are just signals and that is not enough to build a trading system.
On this I agree with s2191.
You didn't read everything in the main post on page 8. It says that the position is held until a new fractal appears. The fact that there are secondary corrections inside the Main correction is normal. The Hidden D-C catches them all. In the figure, they all win out, though they are not quite correct as they didn't reach the starting point. And the second question is by how many points (from B to C - 38 points) they have won back. You write - ... then in the second one after a very short correction... I.e. the correction was (and from E to F - 25 pips, usually I catch 10-14 on this timeframe and this pair) and I didn't write that it should be long - it had to be and it was. The practical value of the signal is another matter. For me it is the basis for the entry system. I also wrote there that it should be measured in % in order to determine its practical value. This is how you do it and this is the trick. The same zest is the exact output. A definition of which I never got from s2101. I downloaded and enlarged the drawing from the material posted on Yandex.
s2101 - I thought we agreed on the terms to avoid confusion and you understood that they cannot be freely converted as they are reversed depending on whether the indicator is above or below the chart. As soon as you merge these two concepts into one, for example - Divergence (which includes both convergence and divergence i.e. D-C), half of your texts will simply disappear, because there will be nothing to talk about. Thanks for the praise of not being lazy - absolutely agree with you. But you have hypnotized yourself with your own words and others simply do not reach your consciousness. None of my formulations can be refuted - they are the quintessence of Hidden Divergences. And there is nothing more to say about the Hidden D-K other than what is said on page 8. The output specifications and method of % measurement are know-how and will not be covered in this topic. I will write a little later on where they will be reflected.
You didn't read everything in the main post on page 8. It says we hold the position until a new fractal appears. The fact that within the main correction, there are secondary ones is normal. They are all caught by the Hidden D-C. In the diagram, they all win back. The second question is by how many points. You write - ... then in the second one, after a very short correction... So, the correction took place, and I don't write that it had to be long. So everything is absolutely correct. And that's why it is the basis for the entry system.
I read it carefully. A "new" fractal appears after two bars. Unfortunately due to the vagueness of the picture it is difficult to make exact conclusions, but I can assume that the second D/C (as I pointed out in the post above) closed on the third bar at best to zero, and the third one was definitely negative. So I'm asking how do you intend to defend yourself (if you do).
The fact that there are minor corrections inside the main correction is normal.
And how are you going to calculate the minor from the main one in the dynamics?
I thought s2101 was hinting to you about the wave structure.
That's why I wrote there that it should be measured in %.
And on what basis are you so confident? IMHO it will depend a lot on the indicator settings.
I understand that you may not have ready-made answers and I do not expect from you ready-made solutions (or know-how), I am interested in thoughts and proposed solutions.
I read it carefully. "New" fractal appears after two bars. Unfortunately due to the vagueness of the picture it's difficult to draw exact conclusions, but I can assume that the second D/C (as I pointed out in the post above) closed on the third bar at best to zero, and the third one was definitely negative. So I'm asking how do you intend to defend yourself (if you do).
And how are you going to calculate the minor from the major in dynamics?
I thought s2101 was hinting to you about the wave structure.
And on what basis are you so confident? IMHO it will depend a lot on the indicator settings.
I understand that you may not have ready-made answers and I do not expect from you ready-made solutions (or know-how), I am interested in thoughts and supposed solutions.
the wording of the title term of the topic:
- "Hidden" Div-Con on a bullish trend is when the troughs on the indicator are deeper than the troughs on the price chart.
- "Hidden" Div-Con on a bearish trend is when the tops on the indicator are higher than the tops on the price chart.
This formulation is the opposite of the Direct Divergence-Convergence formulation.
I must agree with you that this short formulation needs to be clarified for correctness (it was implied in the previous formulations), namely:
- "Hidden" Div-Con on a bullish trend is when the trough on the indicator is deeper than the trough on the price chart and deeper (or equal) than the trough on the indicator from which the reading starts.
-"Hidden" D-Con on a bearish trend is when the top on the indicator is higher than the top on the price chart and higher(or equal) than the top on the indicator, from which the counting starts.
The hidden D-K, fixed at the indicator extrema, confirms the trend (I am not sure, it is a nice formulation).
May I be blunt, but honest? s2101 hasn't said anything new yet, like me. Everything has been said before us. I'm just emphasizing the Hidden D-K as a Signal-Indicator.
The Hidden D-K signal is from material that is 11 years old.
I wrote about the waveform there on p.8. You can also decompose it here starting from t.A. If there are hints of a secondary, it is better to go to the timeframe below.
Again, not every signal is of practical value. This is manual trading and it cannot be error free and 100% profitable. As my definitions are not the final truth, but an attempt to formalize observations and practice. Although I can pretend to be a guru and condescendingly praise my alleged followers. But this is not why I started this thread.
Fractals are lagging even according to V. Kelasev. That's why I try to take a few pips, but guaranteed right after the signal is detected. That is why I do not care whether it is primary or secondary.
I apply a system of 7 indicators of which 5 are looking for Hidden D-K.
Well, almost everything has already given out.