Interesting and humorous - page 136

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What fucking defeatist questions? I don't know about you, but I've had enough.

I've had it with the wall and the line over my head. Don't go there, there's no fish.

 
pro_: Not like that and NOT "a little".

pro_, your righteous anger does not seem very natural (or you have had a bit too much to drink, sorry).

Let's ponder.

Actually Rain's question is in the category of "Does the Earth go round the Sun after all?" - if it had been asked at the time of Copernicus. Just as dangerous and provocative. But it is now considered one of the most innocent questions in the history of mankind.

  • Firstly, the mistakes of those who failed to provide the necessary food supplies in Leningrad (or perhaps even organised their acute shortage) in no way justify the hundreds of thousands of deaths due to starvation, cannibalism, etc.

  • Secondly, the victims of these mistakes cannot be recognized as saints either. They simply turned out to be victims of the dreadful Catastrophe of the Forty-first.

  • Thirdly, the Hitlerites had no interest whatsoever in feeding a city of millions if they took it. They had very limited resources themselves. And as a result (if they had taken it) we would have approximately the same shit, as in Kiev, Minsk or Lvov. I.e. the same repression of the Jews, stoves, shootings, etc.

  • Fourthly, I understand that your blood boils over the fact that the people of the SAS consider themselves to be the true victors of WWII. I don't quite agree with that either, to put it mildly. Yes, good help with the lend-lease. However, it was us (the Russians) who went through the whole dirty and bloody meat grinder, wasn't it?

  • Fifthly, the Anglo-Saxons got engaged in war with Germans when it was already absolutely clear that the USSR would win (in 1944 it was finally clear) - and they had nowhere else to go...
 
Mathemat:
  • ... . They were simply victims of the terrible Shoah of the Forty-first.


Just??? To talk about it in a detached way, as something foreign and irrelevant to us, is at the very least, lying to yourself and your children. It is in this aloof manner that the ignorant civilians who do not know their own history are brought up. But history has not gone away, it continues, we are part of it, our children and grandchildren.

I remember about ten years ago, my daughter, coming home from school, asked me about the war, about my grandfather, my father, about whether he had fought and killed in the war. It turned out that their topic at school was, in passing, the 41-45 war -- I think that's what it sounded like, i.e. not the Great Patriotic War, but just the 41-45 war. And I explained to her: Yes, your grandfather killed the enemy, or else the enemy would have killed him, because it was war!

And you say just...

 
Mathemat:


  • Fifthly, Anglo-Saxons got engaged in war with Germans only when it was already absolutely clear that the USSR would win (in 1944 it was finally clear) - and they simply had nowhere else to go...

The Anglo-Saxons were the British and the Germans.

Since 1942 the Americans did not fight the Germans in North Africa? And there was an Italian company before '44 in '43.

 
FAGOTT:

The Anglo-Saxons are the British and the Germans.

Weren't the Americans fighting the Germans in North Africa from 1942? And there was also an Italian company before '44 in '43.

Yes, to be fair, in the naval battles with Japan and in the battles for the islands, the Americans suffered casualties too. But of course these losses and the scale of American military actions on all fronts are incommensurable with what was happening on the eastern front with the Germans.

The Anglo-Saxons were Germanic tribes. And the Anglo-Saxons are those of them who migrated to England.

 
Mathemat:

pro_, your righteous anger does not seem very natural (or you have had a bit too much to drink, sorry).

Let's ponder.

Actually Rain's question is in the category of "Does the Earth go round the Sun after all?" - if it had been asked at the time of Copernicus. Just as dangerous and provocative. But now it is considered one of the most innocent questions in the history of mankind.

  • Firstly, the mistakes of those who failed to provide the necessary food supplies in Leningrad (or perhaps even organised their acute shortage) in no way justify the hundreds of thousands of deaths due to starvation, cannibalism, etc.

  • Secondly, the victims of these mistakes cannot be recognized as saints either. They simply turned out to be victims of the dreadful Catastrophe of the Forty-first.

  • Thirdly, the Hitlerites had no interest whatsoever in feeding a city of millions if they took it. They had very limited resources themselves. And as a result (if they had taken it) we would have approximately the same shit, as in Kiev, Minsk or Lvov. I.e. the same repression of the Jews, stoves, shootings, etc.

  • Fourthly, I understand that your blood boils over the fact that the people of the SAS consider themselves to be the true victors of WWII. I don't quite agree with that either, to put it mildly. Yes, good help with the lend-lease. However all this dirty and bloody meat grinder was gone through by us (Russians), wasn't it?

  • Fifthly, the Anglo-Saxons got engaged in war with Germans when it was already absolutely clear that the USSR would win (in 1944 it was finally clear) - and they had nowhere else to go...
Mathemat, hello. With all due respect I cannot agree with the main contradictory theses in any way. Besides, my anger is just and therefore natural, and I do not drink alcohol, because ideologically I do not accept it.

So in order,

1) Mistakes of those who did not provide Leningrad with food - that is a separate topic. Those, if any, should have been (and I think were) punished by the laws of war. To the question of defending the city or surrendering at the mercy of the enemy ("maybe they would have provided food") this topic has no relation.

2) For me every sacrifice connected to the war (directly or indirectly) is a holy sacrifice for the sake of one nation and several nations. That is my position. And for me a starving man in an aul in Tajikistan, or a guerrilla warrior perishing in the forests of Belarus, or a defender of Leningrad or Stalingrad are ALL victims of war, and therefore sacred victims who should be remembered as such, and their memory should not be insulted by surveys, speculations, doubts, etc.

3) One can only agree with this, and in light of our topic your argument only supports what I am saying. This (what you said) is known by you and me and millions of others, don't the pseudo-intellectuals from the TV channel know this and want to "clarify" it for themselves? One more confirmation of the provocative nature of this poll. No self-respecting person would question the fact that the Nazis would have destroyed both the city and the population to at least the same extent (but most likely to an even greater extent) as in all the occupied territories. Hence the conclusion that the "rain" channel and the organizers of the poll in particular have no respect for us or for themselves and therefore cannot demand respect from me and others.

4) Here we agree with you, but not quite either. Look at the statistics of those who died in WWII. Not in absolute numbers. For absolute numbers, eternal respect and gratitude to the Russian people and all Russians. But still look in relative figures and ask yourself a question. If the Belarusians are losing 1/3 of the population, if from almost every republic of the Union the average death toll is 10%, which corresponds to the percentage figures for Russia as well, should we not forget about this too. Because "it was we (Russians) who passed through this filthy and bloody meat grinder" is incorrect only in the last word. Otherwise how can we explain my grandfather's war and his brother's heroic death. I am not Russian or even a Russian, but I know, remember and honour everyone, regardless of their nationality.

5) I agree with that too. But what I wrote in my first post was not meant to belittle the role of any of those who sacrificed for the sake of victory, be they Englishmen, Russians, Jews or Tajiks. Everyone should remember their own role, remember the role of others and not belittle it in any way. And this is what enrages me about the Americans. They do not even understand the scale of the Battle of Stalingrad and think that if it were not for them "we would all be speaking German now" :))) and I can't even laugh.

About Copernicus. I pity the man but the comparison is not right. The question about the Earth and the Sun was rather distant and not painful for them then and for us now. "What difference does it make!" most of the population will say to this day. But for me it makes a difference whether people, millions of people, died in vain or not. Should I be proud of them or should I think of them as stupid unreasonable men who didn't know what was best for them, well that's why they died - foolishly. Should I? You'll say, "Well you think so, fine, what's a sociological survey got to do with it?"
I resent its aim: provocative, despicable and hostile.
 
tara:

What fucking defeatist questions? I don't know about you, but I've had enough.

I've had it with the wall and the line over my head. Don't go there, there's no fish.


Believe me, I'm not a supporter of war either. But we should not forget that the military doctrine of Russia's "main strategic adversary" is a state of perpetual war ("perpetual war doctrine"). It has not been abolished yet.

Do you think a poll in such a situation is permissible? Has history not taught us anything? We did not win this war with weapons, or in numbers or in strength, but above all in spirit. And now it is this spirit that they are targeting! That is why I say the question is provocative and inappropriate. That is why it is not permissible, so that no one had the thought "go where there is no fish" and the ground is not prepared for it.

I saw their "surveys" before the Iraq war. You have to be in their midst to feel how such topics, polls and finger-pointed news provocations shape public opinion. And then? A million lives.
 
pro_:

...We did not win this war by force of arms or numbers or numbers of men, but by the SPIRIT....
We won with weapons (when we were able to mobilise factories and deploy mass production of weapons in a short time in the rear - you cannot fight with your bare hands) and with numbers and skills (when we acquired them in the course of the battles). It is not necessary to think that we have a special spirit, the Germans were able to fight too, and could not win because of the lack of material and human resources and because of the enormity of our country.
 
pro_:
"So you think that's fine, what's a poll got to do with it?"
I resent his aim: provocative, mean-spirited and hostile.

Blown out of proportion. That's right, a poll and a poll, if you don't like it, just walk away. Pseudo-patriots always see spies and provocateurs.

And now they can shut it down because of nonsense, it's a great channel.

 
khorosh:
And with the weapon (when we could mobilize the factories and deploy the mass production of weapons in a short period of time in the rear - you could not fight with the bare hands) and with the number and skill (when they acquired it in the course of the fighting). It is not necessary to think that we have a special spirit. The Germans were able to fight too, but they could not win because of the lack of material and human resources and because of the immensity of our country.

If there was not enough time, or could not, or did not acquire, and did not fight but fled? How could they have done all this?

The Germans had no less material and human resources. They were not winning only because they had enough spirit to defeat them at Stalingrad. I am not saying that they did not have it or could not fight. But we had enough heart to go to Berlin and take it, while they did not have enough to take Leningrad and Moscow - it is a fact.

No nation's spirit is special, it is either there or it is not, or it is strong (at the moment, under the circumstances) or it is not.

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